Expanded Beginnings

OOC: This is multiplayer arken

There is no such thing as a geth engineer out of it

Same with cerberus dragoons, they have really heavy armour

and cerberus dragoons die easily flamethrowers
taste really good when flame grilled
who wants some dragoon steak?

OOC. okay... im not sure what you just said... parts of it seemed to support me, parts of it against me...
one, kinetic barriers are shields, not armor. the main thing that influences their strength is energetics, so a uarian, the master of tech, can easily have better protection than turian armor
two, i never said that ME shots go with mach 15+, just that what happens at that point
three, you cant really improve much on some things. for example, in the early 1900s, the production of explosives reached the limits of the age. they could have increased their power by a few more percents, but it wasnt worth the effort.
four, just saying that the speed at which a gun unfolds, is defined by the user these days... your character could just add pretensed springs to the unfolder mechanism that release when the weapon is removed from the slot, and theres no way i nhigh hell that it wont unfold by the time he gets to aim.
five, never said that it doesnt fit ME lore
six, i dont even know what part of my assessment your 5) is against

OOC: I'm not supporting you, Nazamroth and I never said that kinetic barriers were armor!!! Further, I was exaggerating in regards to the Mach 15+ stuff! I ever said it was hyperbole!!! In regards to what my "5" is against it's you trying to tear apart stuff at the start of this RP because you don't agree with it! I'm trying to make sense of things from inconsistent data!! In regards to your third point my character's bio regarding the galactic races being stagnated is MEANT TO BE HIS VIEWS!! It's a way of creating his personality and other factors surrounding him!

Edit: Also, "springs", I don't think guns in ME have springs to help them unfold! And it's still a stupid idea regardless!!! I don't care how long it takes a weapon to unfold, waiting for your rifle to be ready can get you killed very easily! It's stupid!

Everyone calm down and have some dragoon meat

OOC: No gorath, prefer toasted collector myself

OOC. ...okay...someones on his period...
one, im not trying to tear things apart... you keep overreacting stuff every time we disagree in something...
two, its either me, or you, but im pretty sure that we're not on the same page with the armor+barrier thing... i dont even know how we got there... i didnt even say anything bout armor/barriers in my morning comment...

OOC:

1) How droll, making a bodily function reference.

2) I apologize. In retrospect I shouldn't have posted until later in the day. I literally just finished breakfast.

3) I brought in armor and barriers because it's something that has to be considered in regards to the strength of ME weapons.

why not have both hyp? a veritable banquet of toasted foes!

OOC: Hmmm...Throw in some char grilled marauder and sure

of course

OOC: Um...guys....I'm having flashbacks to what Thoros and Sariella did to that Farseer because of this conversation...

OOC: Oh wait, im on a diet, just remember

Will have some human instead

alrighty
and arken I forgot about that one XD

OOC: That's not funny.....Seriously, I just ate...

yeah alright, lets stop now

OOC: FINE!

And what was this tortue you speak of? I am intrigued

OOC: you want to know their strength? we are based before the events of ME1, right?
the first book takes place at that time too. Two elite alliance(? forgot the human factions name) agents(i think one of them may have actually been anderson) were on a mission. one of them got shot. the pellets(and it used the really really small really really fast pellet tech) tore through her barriers almost instantly, and, penetrating the armor without problem, pretty much tore off her leg(s?)...
ME armor, except the really heavy ones, in my opinion, fill the role of modern age combat helmets(except that really modern ones actually arent like this by now XD): they are not meant to protect your head from shots. they are meant to protect against denris impact, stray shrapnel, stuff like that.
i think in ME, armor is rarely meant to protect against shots. its mor elike protection against melee, explosions, lucky shots, etc.
think about it: the formula for motion energy is E= (m*v^2)/2
if you have something going as fast as an ME weapon shot, armor most people wear wont stop it... even though, if you calculate the energy with realistic values, you will get that the impact energy is roughly the same as a modern age assault rifles, take into account that it is concentrated on a tiny, tiny point...

Wanna continue

OOC: I would like to introduce my turian ghost at somepoint...Who has a sniper which shoots explosives...Which are canon

you mean N7 naz, that's what anderson was

OOC: Well, again, I never read the books so I really can't attest to anything from them plus the problem with books is that in-game lore may contradict them. Can you confirm if these books are considered canon (this has become a recent trend in years and I can cite a few examples if you wish)? If they are that would help. As for the armor not being meant to protect against direction shots....that makes them as useless as Vietnam era flak vests that were standard issue to US soldiers. The things would protect against shrapnel but not against direct fire of any sort. Further, it makes little sense that the armors are that useless as even today we have ballistic armors that can stop powerful (read: at least sniper and battle rifle level rounds) without much problem. US Army Dragonskin armor is an example of this as soldiers have reported finding indents where rounds hit their armor and they never felt a thing despite the rounds being, as I said, battle rifle rounds. The fact that no one in ME can make an armor with comparable capabilities is telling of either the stupidity of the galactic races or Bioware royally dropping the ball. As for the formula for energy....um, are you sure the shot is as powerful as modern assault rifles? That doesn't make any sense when you're firing a pellet at supersonic speed, at least. Also, it just annoys me that they use pellets since they're just miniature musket balls. If they used flechettes (god, I hope I spelled that right...) the weapons would be even more dangerous as such a projectile would having better armor penetration and deal more damage to tissue then a pellet, plus it would tumble and roll about inside a target before exiting, assuming it does exit the target.

OOC. the books are canon, as far as i know, and contradict nothing in the game. the one in question is the prequel to ME1 with Saren and Anderson.
Yes, there are such armors, but ask them how much it hinders their freedom of movement. though the dragonskin is a major improvement, the currently standardised ones just suck... my teacher served with many americans in afghanistan, and from his reports "its supposedly very good in both protection and mobility, but i have yet to hear the latter from a soldier". also, few body armors will protect you from sniper shots. ever heard of Juma? or maybe its Yuma? dunno... anyway, he uses a simple old soviet AK variant as a sniper, and shoots americans for sport... ones in body armor... with trickshots... often from 50 meters, right in front of their eyes...
and yes, its about the same as a modenr rifles. i calculated with mach 3, and 0.5 gram ammo, based on the fact that it never runs out, so it cant be that large(plus logic dictates that it needs to be that small)
and it would be rather difficuilt to fire flechette from it. it would need an entire new mechanism to load them properly. bigger mass means less ammo, and lower velocity(and velocity is way more destructive than mass, so you want that).
i admit, te armor is probably more than a flak vest, but it wont stop direct shots... defect angled one? sure, if the angle is right. but it wont stop direct shots, only decrease their power(hence why you suffer damage, but dont die instantly in games, if you insist on game lore)

OOC: I'm not 100% sure about the mobility one has with dragonskin but it seems to be less restricting the most other ballistic armors. As for sniper shots...that's assuming the sniper is aiming at the heart, which used to be acceptable until body armor got to the point where it can actually stop such attacks, which is why most snipers aim for the head. And if ME weapons have the power of a modern assault rifle.....WHAT THE ****!? That makes no sense if these are kinetic weapons! A kinetic weapon would easily be able to launch a projectile at a speed that would make it far faster and thus far deadlier than any modern rifle round! That means that ME weapons don't even fire at mach 1 if the projectiles are only as powerful as modern rifle rounds!! In regard to flechettes that may be true but the mass wouldn't have to be much larger. The round could still be small. Further, with thermal clips it doesn't really matter since that's tantamount to reloading. In fact...let me look up thermal clips on the ME wiki. I'm actually confused if they're just a heat sink of sorts or if they actually hold ammo.


Edit: Okay, it looks like thermal clips function as a heat sink for ME weapons so that explains how they can keep the infinite ammo blocks. Also, canonically, ME guns (and this is where it gets silly) shear off parts of the ammo block and PRODUCE the ammo before firing it. And these are with the pellets. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for flechettes but I'm not a physics expert.

OOC. "That makes no sense if these are kinetic weapons! A kinetic weapon would easily be able to launch a projectile at a speed that would make it far faster and thus far deadlier than any modern rifle round!"
...wut? a modern rifle round is a kinetic weapon too...
just for the record, i was talking about an avarage assault rifle.
and there are multiple reasons why you dont speed it up to insane levels...
1. newtons 3rd law
2. energy consumption and heat production
3. no point. you can speed bullets up to insane velocities, but they just pass straight through the target and give their energy to something more solid on impact, thus causing les sdamage. in addition, you might hit the one behind your target. plus slower bullets start causeing secondary... uhm... .dont know the words... they start causeing sever damage much before a really fast one after entering the body.

OOC: assuming we mean the same by flechette,(little dart thingy) its not that simple. shearing off a pellett is easy. a flchette needs to be shaped, weighed, and aerodinamically stabilised to work. you can create a pellett ammo with a single motion, and you need a series of them to create a flechette

OOC: I make an active distinction between "ballistic weapons" which are what we have now and "kinetic weapons" which are railguns and coilguns. I should have explained this sooner, my bad. I know they're both "kinetic weapons" but I use the term to refer to projectile weapons that don't use a chemical propellant to accelerate and launch a projectile.

1) Although Newton's 3rd Law would hold true...just....for the love of can you see why I was a bit peeved with your initial? I'm trying to make sense of things from inconsistent data and you're post only made things more convoluted. This is why I invoked "story trumps science" earlier. This has gotten incredibly convoluted and the game's own unclear lore only makes things worse. Further, one thing about ME weapons that we need to consider is...do they generate an appreciable "sonic boom"? I'm not sure we have ballistic weapons that do but a "kinetic weapon" such as those in ME would generate such a thing...if they fired projectiles that traveled fast than sound.

2) There are ways to deal with such things but I see your point.

3) I think the term you're looking for is "secondary effects". As to the rest of your point, a projectile going at sufficient velocity doesn't have to cause secondary effects to be lethal. The impact alone could be deadly.

Edit: In regards to flechettes, this may be true but they'd still be superior to pellets and you could make them small and light enough to where carrying magazines of them doesn't hamper a soldier (at least, as far as I know, keep in mind I have not yet begun to study higher order physics and mechanics that would deal with such things). Further, I don't see why you couldn't also apply the thermal clip concept to such a weapon with said ammo type. You end up with a superior weapon by doing that. Hell, you could just make it so that the weapon has a massive "block" that stores the fletchettes and you can still use the thermal clips! Again, you end up with a superior weapon.

Please may we continue

OOC: actually, they wouldnt produce sonic booms.... i think... there was a guy who jumped down from the edge of the atmosphere, and reached mach 1+ in freefall. even though he had a small vapor cone around him, he supposedly did not produce the sound effect because he was too small for it to happen.
dont cite me on that one though.

as for the flechettes, do you realise how small they are? i know of no mechanism that could reliably move them from clip to "barrel". in addition, if it breaks inside, it clogs up the entire machinery of very small parts. i think the main reason they dont use them(apart from bioware not thinking of it), is that pelletts are much better overall. its like the Mosin Ngant and PPSH (even though that H isnt supposed to be there at the end...) vs the Kar-98 and the MP-40. you can have precision weapons that are superior, but when shit hits the fan, youll be glad that you have simple and reliable stuff on you...

OOC: Well, I think something going Mach 5+ (I think, don't quote me on that but I think it would) would generate a sonic boom so I think we can rule out ME weapons accelerating projectiles to that level because of the lack of a sonic boom.

OOC: Naz: notice the edit in my last comment

Edit: WHO THE HELL MADE THAT EDIT!? I didn't! Gorath...are you messing with us?

Edit 2: Also, again, I'm not as versed on the physics such of things as you are (yet) but I don't see why you couldn't load fletchettes like modern day rounds are loaded into modern day weapons, IE: Using a spring mechanism (or something similar). Further, I suggested putting them in a "block" that has thousands of them like typical ME ammo blocks can be sheared into thousands of rounds, etc....you know what? I think we're looking and reading to much into this. This started because you decided my character's bio had to be 100% accurate in all regards when Gorath already affirmed that it fit the ME lore pretty closely. Further, people in ME modify their weapons all the time so is it really that horrendous that he modified his own weapons to out perform the gear of his rivals in certain aspects?

OOC: Guys, I am just gonna go make another topic for those people who want to RP while you 2 have this debate

OOC I made no edits

OOC: I didn't intend for this to happen. I declare this debate done. This thread can be directed back on course. A debate thread may be more appropriate. Also, Gorath, if you didn't then...what the...I don't remember writing that extra OOC....

OOC: It was fate!

OOC: again, assuming that we are thinking the same, how do you load a small dart, not even a millimeter in diameter, with spring mechanism? i... sorry arken, but my collective studies in engineering are simply all telling me that its not worth the trouble and problems to use those...
plus assuming that it works perfectly, it will either shatter on impact, just creating a bit more fragmentation damage than a pellett, or go clean through the body. it will barely ever start tumbling inside like you said. if it as aerodynamic mid flight, it will be aerodynamic inside you too, if its still in one piece. plus, it would increase the mass of the projectile significantly, thus causing the aformentioned problems
and one more thing... WHEN THE BLOODY HELL DID I FUCKING CAUSE THIS AGAIN?! i clarified a matter that you werent sure about. i said that the weapon unfolding was probably more of a gameplay thing than lore, as i dont remember such a thing from the books. plus if your weapon unfolds faster, it might jump out of your hand or something... and i explained why they dont improve prothean tech. how the hell is that fething tearing the RP apart?!

OOC: Dude, I'm done. I'm out of ideas with which the to argue and the spring thing was stupid on my part. There, I've said. Look, I'm done. I'm leaving. I ran my lore by Gorath who has the best grasp of any lore I've seen and yet since I didn't run it by the mighty Hungarian Engineering student he felt obligated to tear it apart for scientific inaccuracy. I'm content that my character's background and gear is compliant with the lore! Enough said! I'm done with this. I can't stand it. It's not the "weapon unfolding thing". Hell, his weapons DON'T EVEN UNFOLD!! Also, I was going off of inconsistent data when I wrote that and...look, I'm the one at fault here, not you, me! I'll leave you all in peace because apparently this isn't a site for one as DUMB AS MYSELF! Good bye! If you'll excuse I have to go study physics and then perhaps change my selected college courses and preferred career! I was writing based on what made sense to me based on my understanding of the lore and physics and since we're never given proper values in the game or lore I was GUESSING! Good bye.

OOC guys, none of this matters....seriously

OOC. ..well fuck... now he made me feel like shit... and im anything but mighty engineering student...
you know what? everyone have it his way..... i dont give a fuck...
and if by "goodbye" you mean permanent goodbye, dont you dare leave the others because you had a fallout with me...

OOC I doubt he'd perma-leave Naz. I really doubt that. and I say everyone just forget about it and move on

OOC: Been trying to say that for a while gor....And now people have fallen out and are no longer friends

OOC: I'm tempted to leave because clearly I can't make any scientific statements without ending up in an argument! I was making guesses based on inconsistent data! This is like the sixth time I've said that! I was trying to rationalize things in a way that made sense to both me and people who read my rationale! I'm not preaching it to be the truth but I'm tired of having everything I type picked apart, especially in regards to stuff that is unclear to begin with!!! To me, the weapons firing pellets at mach 1, maybe less, makes senses and I even listed why it makes sense to some degree! Frankly, it doesn't matter. And the mach 1 thing in my initial post was a sort of joke anyway! I was going off of fan calculations there and I...look, I'm done. Argument over. I'm done.

OOC okay okay. everyone's said their piece, no more arguing. at the risk of quoting star wars, this bickering is pointless. even if one person did prove another wrong, it would have gotten you nowhere and resulted in something completely inconsequential. We don't need people falling out over something so trivial!

OOC: and i was providing more input to fill in the gaps in the inconsistent data...
and im done...

OOC: I tried to offer a good, well thought out rebuttal earlier and even invoked "story trumps science" to prevent something like this but it didn't work. I'll concede Nazamroth had some good points but some of the stuff (like ME assault rifles only being as powerful as modern assault rifles) didn't make sense (seriously, why would they be that powerful! The sheer velocity of the pellets alone would make them more powerful) and I was trying to rationalize that and it only made things worse. I'm done. Argument over. This is my doing. Mine alone. I'll leave you all in peace.

OOC it wasn't just one person's doing arken, both of you escalated it far too quickly. The only good thing that can be done now is to forgive and forget. this argument was pointless and inconsequential in all honesty, and it would be a bad idea to let it cause any resentment between you two.

OOC: I'm not resentful towards Nazamroth about this. On the contrary, thanks to him I'm reevaluating my career choices since I'm clearly to stupid to understand basic physics and its relation to ballistics, both real and science fiction based.

Letting this cause resentment towards yourself is an even worse idea arken

OCO ....dont....... never do that.... if it seems like a good idea to listen to me, nbever do it... never...
only listen to me when it seems stupid... that is the only time when its a good idea...
and it isnt as powerful as you think, because it is much, much lighter than modern day ammö... but i was only using educated guesses too for a quick estimation, so i might be wrong

OOC: Look, I'm going to leave you all in peace for the time being. I clearly don't have the intelligence to participate in an RP where the weapons are anything more advanced than bones and rocks and even then that is debatable. I was just trying to rationalize some things based on my understanding of the fields and I offered a polite and well thought out rebuttal and it only made things worse.

OOC arken don't do this. no one called you stupid or anything like that. like I said this whole thing is inconsequential and I would absolutely hate to see you leave or start hating yourself. I view both you and naz as friends and the one thing I hate to see more than friends arguing is friends ridiculing themselves, especially as a result of something so pointless

OOC. i know i should shut up before another argument erupts, or worse, but you are overreacting again...